Posted by Hunter [12.254.24.250 - 12-254-24-250.client.attbi.com] on 13 December 2001 at 17.38.06 ZuluTime:

In Reply to: Fallacy posted by meta_human on 13 December 2001 at 16.17.05 ZuluTime:

Before I even start, I might as well give everyone the chance to see the chat transcript:

meta_human1 enters
You tell meta_human1 I'm not here. Or, you're one of the people not allowed to PM me. If you really want to talk to me, find me here: http://gremlin.net/cgi-data
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, Aw. Meta still wants to PM me....
meta_human1 says, Hunter - ok, i've eaten now. i'm sorry. when i don't eat, i get somewhat... quasi-conscious. ok. again, i apolagize.
meta_human1 says, ok....
meta_human1 says, ok..
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, meta_human1: Y'know, you're quite full of yourself. If you go to the board, I'm sure you'll find more people you /think/ you'll be able to feed off of. But I think you're just aware enough to know that if you go anywhere near it, you'll meet someone who could eat you alive....
meta_human1 says, ok.... Hunter_the_CrazyChick, on what basis do you reject the classical theism (which is post-medieval judaism, xtianity, and islam) so consistantly and sucessfully posited?
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, meta_human1: I don't 'reject' anything. I see no need to believe in something that hasn't been evidenced to exist.
rev_chainsaw says, Rhian: I'm glad to hear that. :)
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, Is that so terribly difficult for you to grasp?
meta_human1 says, right, that's what i thought Hunter_the_CrazyChick.... so, you believe in only those things which possess evidence... ok....
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, meta_human1:The word you're groping for is 'accept'.
sheri_unplugged says, if this is what makes u laugh then i gosh i really feel u sorry
meta_human1 says, Hunter_the_CrazyChick.. simple question... shant take that long....
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, meta_human1: I hold no beliefs. I accept that other people exist, and I accept that they have an organ called 'the brain'. I rarely see it evidenced that they use it to its fullest potential.
hernsbro says, sheri arnt you afraid that the almighty gosh is going to dang you to heck???
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, meta_human1: Oh, I'm sorry; did you expect me to devote /all/ my attention to you? Not gonna happen.
meta_human1 says, Hunter_the_CrazyChick - you see, this is exactly what i've made it my purpose to undermine... your claim that you hold "no beliefs" and are therefore a epistemological nihilist...
meta_human1 says, so Hunter_the_CrazyChick, prove to me that other minds exist...
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, meta_human1: I haven't asserted that 'other 'minds' exist'.
meta_human1 says, Hunter_the_CrazyChick - simple question; do other minds exist?
meta_human1 says, oh, well sorry, should i give you more time to answer?
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, meta_human1: You already asked that question; I already answered it. Could you not understand the response, or are you willfully ignorant....
meta_human1 says, Hunter_the_CrazyChick - you did not answer the question. you said "i accept that other people have an organ called "the brain"' or whatever.... answer the question please...
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, meta_human1: That was my answer.
meta_human1 says, Hunter_the_CrazyChick: so in other words, you've retreated from the whole epistemic issue for fear that it is a demonstrattion against the fallacy of your aforemented assertion. great. i applaud such sophistry.
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, meta_human1: No, in other words, I'm not retarded enough for you to try to dance around with 'fancy terms' and abstracts.
meta_human1 says, Hunter_the_CrazyChick: ok....
meta_human1 says, fine..
meta_human1 says, ok...
meta_human1 says, how...
meta_human1 says, Hunter_the_CrazyChick: hmm..
Hunter_the_CrazyChick now understands why meta wanted to go into pm.
meta_human1 says, Hunter_the_CrazyChick... interesting...
meta_human1 says, very
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, You were more afraid of embarrasing yourself.
meta_human1 says, afraid..
meta_human1 says, hmm...
meta_human1 says, ok Hunter_the_CrazyChick, do you or do you not subscribe to the atheism as it is known via philosophy - do you posit that God does not exist. or ahve you simply suspended judgement, pending conlcusive evidence...?
meta_human1 says, Hunter_the_CrazyChick???
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, meta_human1: I neither 'believe' nor 'disbelieve'. Both are a religious stance.
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, meta_human1: Oh, sorry, I keep forgetting, you're attentionstarved....
meta_human1 says, Hunter_the_CrazyChick - i never used the word "belive"
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, Nobody has 'other things' going on in their life when you're around.
Hunter_the_CrazyChick never used 'belive' either.
meta_human1 says, Hunter_the_CrazyChick - and as a sidenote, you need a serious lesson on the nature of knowledge.
Hunter_the_CrazyChick isn't sure the word exists.
vlmma_1995 smiles @ Hunter
fastillion says, meta_human1 - teach me the source of all knowledge
hernsbro says, meta..hunter lacks for no attention here..she has a sharp mind and is a genuine nice person. we all pay attention to her and repect what she has to say. you need to look just a wee bit past the end of your own nose
ndofuiooh says, but not to different actually
meta_human1 says, Hunter_the_CrazyChick - so answer the question for goodness sake..... why are you so afraid to answer my questions???!!!
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, meta_human1: Of course I do; because you're the only one who can know anything; you're the ultimate intellectual, aren't you. Smartest person on the planet....
blackheartedprofit says, dont include me in thet hernsbro
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, meta_human1: Why can't you understand the responses.
vlmma_1995 says, or me, hernsbro... i don't even know meta human... however, i do know hunter...
meta_human1 says, of course - always personalize... the first refuge of the insecure...
meta_human1 says, Hunter_the_CrazyChick= ad hominem junkie.
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, meta_human1: Allow me to repeat this, since it seems to take you a while to get things: Either stance would be a 'belief'. Either stance would require faith. Either stance would be a religious stance. I neither 'believe' nor 'disbelieve' in a deity. I neither claim one exists, nor claim one doesn't exists.
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, Figure it out.
meta_human1 says, Hunter_the_CrazyChick - i ahevn't asked you for a belief!?
meta_human1 says, Hunter_the_CrazyChick - so, essentially, your disposition is one of angnosticism...
vlmma_1995 says, but it's the thought that counts right?
ladi_purgatory says, Me too Tweek
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, tweeky: I tried to say Hi to you earlier, but you left.
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, meta_human1: Everyone is agnostic. Nobody 'knows for sure'. Try again.
meta_human1 says, Hunter_the_CrazyChick - you claim that faith and believe are irrational.
meta_human1 says, Hunter_the_CrazyChick - an unspported presumption.
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, meta_human1: Quote me.
meta_human1 says, Hunter_the_CrazyChick - just because you are not well-read enough to know the metaphysical terms, does not mean that they do not apply.
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, meta_human1: And yet I'm the 'ad hominem junkie'....
vlmma_1995 says, meta human, why is everything you state punctuated with an attack?
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, tweeky: Because he needs to attack.
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, tweeky: He claimed earlier that he would 'enjoy' destroying me.
meta_human1 says, vlmma_1995 - no attacks. just observations.
vlmma_1995 says, oh one of those kinds, hunter...
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, tweeky: Yeah.
vlmma_1995 says, meta human... how can you possibly know if someone is well-read or not?
meta_human1 says, yes Hunter_the_CrazyChick - and that is why you have retreated into a vestige of epistemological nihilism -- so there is nothing to attack but a void of ignorance.
vlmma_1995 says, no answer to that question meta_human?
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, meta_human1: Care to tell me more about what I'm doing?
secular_human says, I never was gay
meta_human1 says, vlmma_1995 - because she speaks on concepts, without usuing the appropriate terms to those concepts.
secular_human says, ok
vlmma_1995 says, meta_human, if you are explaining "concepts" to a child... do you use the terminology appropriate to those concepts or try to use terminology the listener understands???
meta_human1 says, vlmma_1995 - Hunter_the_CrazyChick speaks about ontology, and metaphysics in general, but steadfastly denies that she holds any beliefs at all! as if, these conclsusiosn that she's reached are innate!!!
meta_human1 says, vlmma_1995 - exactly. i'm glad you've equated Hunter_the_CrazyChick to a child ;)
rendermaster says, moopy, you haven't understood a word that meta has said and you are agreeing with him?
moopy777 says, its as if hunter should shut the fuck up?
vlmma_1995 says, actually meta_human, that reference was to you --as you well know :)
moopy777 says, yes i do render,more then you know
ladi_purgatory says, Render...why rock the boat, just agree!
rendermaster says, please, moopy - explain to all of us what "ontology" is
Hunter_the_CrazyChick sits back and watches.
moopy777 says, i know whqat inante is
rendermaster says, or perhaps describe for us what epistemological nihilism is...
meta_human1 says, this is quite amazing. Hunter_the_CrazyChick provokes me to destroy her, and then offers nothing in the way of conceptual dialoge.
rendermaster says, lol
moopy777 says, ontology is a noumenon
moopy777 says, render my boy
ladi_purgatory says, Render, ask your questions using monosyllabic words...you may get better answers...
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, meta_human1: You claimed you could destroy me. I told you to go ahead. You tried to take it to PM; I told you that if you truly wanted to 'destroy' me -- as you asserted you could -- you should do it on the board that I gave you. You declined.
rendermaster says, lol
kohrsme says, meta is very angry...looking for attention he called me a bigot and by cut and paste from a dictionary he proved me wrong,i asked if it made him feel better he started talking dirty to me....just another angry teenager who cant express him self like an adult.... i almost feel bad for the shithead!!!lol
moopy777 says, shes not a total nihilist though
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, And you haven't managed to destroy me yet. Because you're not capable of doing so.
meta_human1 says, Hunter_the_CrazyChick - the board is not real time is it?
meta_human1 says, Hunter_the_CrazyChick - lol. i can't destroy a void.
rendermaster says, you don't know what a nihilist is, moopy
meta_human1 says, rendermaster - i wasn't calling her a nihilist
moopy777 says, hunter knows she is sentient thats about it
meta_human1 says, agrees with moopy777
moopy777 says, yes i do render
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, meta_human1: It's real-time enough; you press post, the post gets added to the board. Do I have to explain the basics of perl scripting to you....
whirld says, actually, that's an interesting nick
rendermaster says, what, moopy?
rendermaster says, please - explain it to us
moopy777 says, she has no beliefs
meta_human1 says, ok Hunter_the_CrazyChick - why prefer that board to this chat?
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, meta_human1: Because it's far more public.
meta_human1 says, ok... let's rock the suburbs...
vlmma_1995 says, well that's interesting; a super intellectual like meta_human agrees with moopy!!! think about that!!
meta_human1 says, topic?....
rendermaster says, lol
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, meta_human1: You claimed you could destroy me. Post. Destroy me within that post. You've one shot.
moopy777 says, tweeks theres more to me then you could imagine
meta_human1 says, Hunter_the_CrazyChick - lol. one shot. you're so scared! ok, fine.
meta_human1 says, "one shot".... hahahaha...
vlmma_1995 says, moopy, perhaps...but you don't often show that persona in chat...
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, meta_human1: You claimed you could do it. Someone so advanced as yourself should only need one shot.
moopy777 says, tweeks my gift isnt in being eloquent
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, meta_human1: one shot, one kill.
moopy777 says, but the resulting underestimation gives me the ability to win consistently
rendermaster says, win what?
moopy777 says, win the things most people dont have
rendermaster says, everyone thinks you're a moron, moopy - how exactly is anyone underestimating you?
vlmma_1995 says, moopy, and i am saying this as gently as possible, i don't think i have ever seen you win....
moopy777 says, theres my proof
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, Point, tweeky....
rendermaster says, how do we get saved from people like you, moopy?
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, rendermaster: It's called a 'sniper rifle'.
rendermaster says, lol
moopy777 says, render be humble
rendermaster says, I am being humble - you are the one making self-aggrandizing claims
moopy777 says, bbl,thou unsaved
rendermaster says, oops - another big word
moopy777 leaves
vlmma_1995 says, i really like those "big" words, render ;)
Hunter_the_CrazyChick says, ...and you know he just pronounced that 'unsave-ed'....
rendermaster says, lol

There. That should be all the background anyone needs going into this, although it might do everyone a bit of good to have some access to information on the person who posted this.

I'll just go ahead and provide that too....

You can find the basics on his yahoo profile, although I recommend the slightly more detailed profile on his little homepage

Now, on to his attempt to 'destroy' me....

: from what i have gathered, from her highly defensive apologium,

I suppose you're referring to the transcript above. I'd like you to point out the 'highly defensive' aspects, after defining the phrase as you wish to use it.

Hunter's metaphysical (and inescapbably, existential) disposition entails the following...

My 'metaphysical disposition'....

My temperment, [or my plans depending on the definition] toward the a. branch of philosophy dealing with the nature of existence, truth, and knowledge or b. abstract thought.

Well, let's see what you came up with....

: 1. that Faith (and strangely, "belief") requires irrationality; or at least an unjustified supposition. {and there was something in there about she herself having no faith - quite the presumptuous little hoodlum)

I think we'll be needing you to point out exactly where I stated that faith and belief were 'irrational'.

And I would really like to know how I can be 'unduly and overly confident' in regards to something I can quite solidly state about myself. I lack faith.

For the record, the term 'hoodlum' is quite blatantly misused, seeing as I am neither a street-thug nor a gangster. I suggest you try to avoid namecalling until you can come up with something more suited for the person you're trying to attack.

: 2. that she does not hold to anything not based on "evidence" (what type of evidence i could not extrapolate from her).

You never asked.

: and 3. religiosity, or indeed anything mystic, necessarily requires fallaciousness, because "everyone is really an agnostic" since "nobody knows for sure".

The exact quote was: Everyone is agnostic. Nobody 'knows for sure.' It was in reference to you telling me that I was 'agnostic' and not 'atheistic' because I didn't fit your strawman of atheism [in which atheism is a religion that disbelives - or actively rejects -- the existance of any and all deities].

: and so here is the inherent contradiction that comprises Hunter's [highly structured] worldview: "i have no faith, yet i have faith that God/s haven't made it a condition of my existence that i seek the truth"

And who are you quoting here? Certainly not me.

; in other words, Hunter sits back, supposedly dispassionate (though very emotional)

I wouldn't exactly qualify myself as 'very emotional', but, since you seem to think so....

and supposedly objective (yet of very selected interest),

And you've observed me quite long enough to come to this conclusion, I suppose? What are my interests....

in a state of epistemological nihilism - claiming that her very consciousness does not require access to truth. yet (!) at the same time, she claims that this position is true!

'And yet [!]' I never claimed any such thing....

: nevertheless, her actually ontology is that of [what is called in the philosophy world] Strong Agnosticism. not surprisingly, there are very few strong agnostics left, because such agnosticism (in the tradition of Hume and others) requires that one rejects as a surety the existance of other minds. a rationalist empiricst such as Hunter, rejects all that which is not conclusively proven via demonstration. but alas, one can not demonstarte the existence of other minds, only infer. even the existance of the brain organ, is based upon a whole series of prejudices which the strong agnostic must reject (such as the reliability and unprovability of the senses).

Can anyone show me where I '[rejected] as a surety the existance of other minds', because I don't quite remember answering 'No, absolutely not' to 'do other minds exist'.

I'm beginning to understand though. Meta, you're one of those people who can't understand that 'holding no belief' doesn't mean 'disbelieving in anything that isn't evidenced to exist'. Disbelief is a for of belief. Rejecting something that isn't evidenced to exist is taking it on faith that it positively does not exist. Until it's proven to exist, it can't be disproven. Until it's evidenced either way, it's not a fucking issue.

: i could just as easily enter into an entire monograph refuting Hunter's dogmatic materialism/monism/atheism. but i'm sure this is not the appropriate venue - and such a designation would surely not be appreciated by the individual at whom this is dedicated.

You're right; I'm rather glad you didn't. I don't really feel like reading through thirty pages of improper grammar and sentence structure. I sent you here to destroy me, not discredit yourself.

: so, let me just close with a short succinct refutation of strong agnosticism.

A short, short refutation. Okay....

: Hunter, you have faith that the logical conclusions you have reached are correct. you were not born with the conclusions you now cling to at the exclusion of all others.

All based on a completely incorrect interpretation of what was said. Irrelevant.

: Hunter, you have obviously not sought metaphysical truth to any great extent, therefore, it is quite unfair and hypocritical of you to judge those who have as somehow mistaken.

I prefer to deal in facts, not faith-based assumptions, like you're playing with here. You might do well to stop prancing around in your little realm of 'metaphysical truths' and actually read and comprehend for five seconds....

: Hunter, your belief in the existance of other minds is not based on evidence, or reason, but inferential intuition.

And when did I state anything definite regarding the existance or nonexistance of other 'minds'.

Likewise, i would be bold enough to venture that you hold sundry BELIEFS; namely, an objective morality, an ultimate reality, the order of the universe and the subsequent existance of the thing we call 'truth', and many others.

I'm glad you're brave enough to be wrong.

: Hunter, to claim that we are all agnostic concerning ontology is patently false. for example, any sentient beings KNOWS, if nothing else, that she exists.

Agnostic, as it's standardly defined by the room the absence of definite knowledge regarding the existance of a deity. If one were able to definitely know whether a deity exists, then this conversation wouldn't be happening.

furthermore, have you investigated every person who claims to "know for sure" before you summarily dismiss them? of course you haven't - more errancy, more hypocrisy, more contradiction.

And did I ever claim anything that made such a task necessary?

: as such, i can only conclude that Hunter is mistaken in her metaphysical propositions, and has achieved a level nothing more, than [at least in terms of philosophy] intellectual adolescence.

Funny, it seems to me that all you've demonstrated here is your intellectual adolescence. You're a combative child who read a couple of books, and acts as if he's the smartest person ever to exist.

Sorry to have to break it to you, but you're not. And just because you 'think' something is one way or another, doesn't make it so. That's called 'faith', and it makes you look silly. Sorta like you're looking a little silly right now.

See, I knew this was exactly what you'd do; that's why I went ahead and saved the transcript. You figured that nobody would have any background on the situation.

They do. And, from my perspective, it's made you look rather stupid.

That's just how it looks from over here, though. I doubt you'll see it; you seem to not see anything other than what you want to see.

And I'm going to go ahead and predict your response now [I somehow doubt you'll respond, even though you do want the attention]. No, I didn't particularly 'refute' you, did I. Yes, I did go ahead and 'attack' your inability to communicate through writing without discrediting yourself by not capitalising the first letter of your sentences, and your occasional redundancies.

I didn't have to refute anything. Posting the transcript kinda took care of that.

I do hope you return, though. Later, when everyone else has had a go at this, as I'm fairly certain they will....

~Hunter

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