Zedechiah_the_Messiah's conversation with meta_human
meta_human1: ok.
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: alright.
meta_human1: good stuff. now..
meta_human1: "After a Jewish man became adept at Torah instruction, skilled at a craft, and successfully married, he was, according to the SAYINGS OF THE FATHERS! "fit at thirty for authority." If he desired to instruct others the last qualification [i.e., marriage was stressed. . . . In a recent study, shalom Ben-Chorin of Jerusalem argues that Jesus married because an unmarried teacher was unimaginable in the culture in which he participated.
meta_human1: We know nothing about the wives of Hillel, Shammai and many other notable men of that era and culture, yet we still assume they were married, for, had they been unmarried, surely their opponents would have pointed to their violation of sacred duty as a basis for criticism." (1973:45)
meta_human1: There Is no doubt that Christ presented Himself as an inspired religious teacher. As such, He would have been expected to be married. According to an ancient Jewish text, the Mishnah, an unmarried man "may not be a teacher (KIDDUSHIM 4,13; Phil (1973:45).
meta_human1: comments?
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: but that gives the false illusion that because some popular jewish icons were believed to be married that ALL jews married. they didnt. some purposely OBSTAINED from marriage eg: The War Scroll, Philos report of the "essenes who lived alone except for the palm trees. They took in orphans and thats how the group made members"(paraphrase)
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: abstained
meta_human1: granted, but Rabbis had to be married. and Jesus begain his ministery at 30! just as all rabbis did. further, the essenes were highly irregular, and quite different from an everyday jew in nazereth. jesus was not an essene of course.
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: :'sayings of the fathers" automatically gives a context for which jewish group we're dealing with 1) its about pharisees. all jews werent pharisees. 2) it relies upon that tradition as indeed going back to the first century for ALL pharisees, when its referenceing a codification that didnt finish until 500ce
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: the essenes werent highly irregular. they were the 2nd largest group next to the pharisees
meta_human1: no, no, no, the "sayings of the fathers" was an extremely common phrase in judaism. it was not a pharisee saying.
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: but youre giving a rabbinic context - "Hillel and Shamai" to what group do those two belong as primary teachers?
meta_human1: they were still highly irregular - their doctrines etc, was uniquely different form orthodox judaism. mary, joseph, and jeus's brother james were all orthodox jews
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: theres no such thing as orthodox judaism
meta_human1: regardless, the point is, you HAD TO BE MARRIED if you were a Rabbi - you weren't a rabbi unless you were married. the two go hand in hand.
meta_human1: "Marriage is vitally important in Judaism. Refraining from marriage is not considered holy, as it is in some other religions. On the contrary, it is considered unnatural." (jewfaq.org)
meta_human1: "The idea that Jesus was married was taught, and still is taught by many others not of our faith, and they present a strong array of evidence in defense of their beliefs. For instance, William E. Phipps, a Presbyterian minister, wrote the book Was Jesus Married? He concludes with a resounding "yes" to the question."
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: youre saying Jesus was a rabbi because Hillel and Shamai were rabbis, and since Hillel and Shamai were rabbis, and their tradition said one should be married, therefore Jesus is a rabbi who must have been married. Its a non-sequitor and not suggested by anything. And there is plenty of evidence for jews who DID remain celibate, and we see Jesus sharing their imagery and language just as much as we see pharisees
meta_human1: "Indeed, in the early Ebionite tradition (the Jewish-Christian tradition), Mary Magdalene was considered his wife. In later 2nd Century traditions - deemed heretical by the Church - she was viewed as His spokesman to the Apostles."
meta_human1: WHAT?!?!?!?!?!
meta_human1: are you denying that jesus was a rabbi???????
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: ebiuonites didnt see them as married
meta_human1: are you denying that Jesus (Yayshua) was a Rabbi?
meta_human1: yes/no
meta_human1: ?
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: :yup. that Matthew references him as rabbi, and john perhps does so as well during the formation of the rabbinic form of judaism and at the same time expelling christians from the synagogues we shouldnt be suproised to se Jesus called "rabbi" or "master". we also seeing him being refered to as a teacher, which would be a "moreh"
meta_human1: oh.my.god.
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: :...but "moreh" or "teacher" isnt a rabbinic expression. we do find it in essenism tho
meta_human1: what denomination are you?
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: im not a denomination
meta_human1: what denomination do you adhere to?
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: :none
meta_human1: so you are of the non-denominational denomination?
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: why are you assuming any religious affiliation at all? ive made no reference to my personal beliefs
meta_human1: your screen name dude.
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: :yes?
meta_human1: the way you speak about jesus, i assumed you were christian. sorry.
meta_human1: but one thing at a time, jus let me prove to you that jesus was a rabbi/rabboni ok?
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: :its ok. but nope. not christian. but i do have over a dozen years of research into early jewish theologies and christian origins, as well as currently taking a greek course
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: youre not going to bre aable to do it. youll have to prove to me forinstance that Honi the Circle Drawer is a rabbi, as well as Hanina Ben Dosa, they have "rabbi" attached to their name, and were cast into the light of rabbinic heroes, but they werent pharisees, or "rabbis" in the sense of rabbinic theology. they were charismatics, just like Jesus
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: :....and they certainly werent "masters" ie: masters of scriptural interpretation. they werent scripture prophets. they were wandering charismatics that preformed miracles
meta_human1: oh i see what you're saying. Jesus was addressed as a Rhabbi, but he wasn't a REAL rabbi because he did not hold traditional rabbinic theology? is that what you're saying?
meta_human1: (John 1:38 - "Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi," - in Strong's concordance, the word here is "Rhabbi" [4462].
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: he wasnt a "rabbi" in the sense of rabbinic judaism, right. Rabbinic judaism - as in using the phrase "sayings of the fathers" within a context of Hillel and Shamai is a rabbinic theology. Sadduccees didnt have that theology. Essenes didnt. John the B didnt, Honi didnt, ben Dosa didnt. not even Josephus did
meta_human1: so...
meta_human1: let's take this from the start then...
meta_human1: jesus was born...
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: we dont know anything about when Jesus was born
meta_human1: but do you agree that he was born?
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: yup
meta_human1: i apologize, i am searching for theological/philosophical answers, not historical ones.
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: understanding jewish theolgies is a part of understanding jewish history and certainly christian origins
meta_human1: yeah, but i'm interested in truth, not the facts of history.
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: "truth" is not some thing that stands off by itself apart from reality. it is contingent UPON reality. history contains "facts". those facts are "true"
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: ...otherwise they wouldnt be "facts"
meta_human1: these "facts" are based on a vale judgement of the basis of the evidence. the "facts" of history have changed continually.
meta_human1: *value
meta_human1: maybe not continually, but lots of times.
meta_human1: it used to be a fact that columbus was the first european in America.
meta_human1: etc etc
meta_human1: anywasy
meta_human1: From his birth, as is indicated by his very Jewish genealogy, Jesus was raised a Jew. He was circumcised the eighth day (Luke 2.21), bore a common Jewish name, Yeshua, 'he [God] saves' (Matthew 1.21). In fact, Yeshua was the fifth most common Jewish name, 4 out of the 28 Jewish High-Priests in Jesus' time were called Yeshua. Joseph was the second most common male name and Mary the most common amongst women...
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: that a jew has written down his particular ideas and conepts of religion is not a fact that will change over time. that part is static. it is a fact, and thus "true"
meta_human1: but we weren't talking about that.
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: we just were
meta_human1: After his birth, Jesus was presented to the Lord in the Jerusalem temple (Luke 2.22; cf. Deuteronomy 18.4; Exodus 13.2,12,15) according to Mary's period of uncleanness (Leviticus 12.2-8). A sacrifice was offered for him - a pair of doves and 2 young pigeons - which indicated that his family were not wealthy (Leviticus 12.2,6,8; Luke 2.22-24). Thus Jesus was raised according to the law (Luke 2.39).
meta_human1: Every year, (perhaps the family was prospering or were particularly dutiful for most only went up to Jerusalem occasionally) Jesus' family went up to Jerusalem to celebrate Passover (Pesach) (Luke 2.41-43) a tradition which Jesus continued (John 12.12; Mark 14.12-26). Jesus also kept Tabernacles (Sukkôth, 'booths') (John 7.1-39). "As was his custom" he also attended synagogue every sabbath (Luke 4.16) even during his travelling ministry (Mark 1.39; Matthew 4.23; 9.35; Luke 4.15,16-27,44).
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: youre refering to Matthew. a jewish christian who was attempting to communicate his beliefs about Jesus
meta_human1: i'm actually referring to Luke mostly..
meta_human1: who was a full on goyim
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: it is a document written by a jew. those writings arent changing. theyre now static and permenantly placed upon vellum and parchment
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: Yeshua, 'he [God] saves' (Matthew 1.21)
meta_human1: yes, but i'm referring to luke MOSTLY
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: goy, simgular. goyim is plural
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: singular
meta_human1: yep.
meta_human1: cherub, cherubiym; eloah, elohiym; etc etc
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: ok, so far everything youve described is basically the same as any other even half-pious jew.
meta_human1: but now comes the clinchers...
meta_human1: (and remeber i said was was going from the begiinning
meta_human1: On the outside Jesus even looked like a Jewish Rabbi. Certainly, being faithful to the Law, he wore the tsîtsith('tassel', Numbers 15.37-41; Matthew 9.20; 14.36; Luke 8.44; in English these are obvious by the translations 'hem' or 'fringe of his garment' which the crowds were keen to touch in order to be healed).
meta_human1: he wore the tsitsith!
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: it says no such thing tho
meta_human1: further, as i said before... Rabbis were to teach after they were 30... and surpirse, surpise, that's when Iesu began his ministry!
meta_human1: it does...i'll show you...
meta_human1: -=it is also important to remember, that he observed the Torah perfectly (!), "Which of you convicts me of sin?" (John 8:46).
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: im looking at the greek right now. it doesnt say any such thing. it says only that the woman touched the edge of his garment
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: :"perfectly" according to whom? christians? according to Jesus? the Sadduccees would say he didnt. the rabbis would say he didnt. the essenes would say he didnt.
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: each one of those groups said THEY practiced torah perfectly. it was merely a matter of sectarian interpretation
meta_human1: it was the sadduccees whom he was talking to
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: Matt 9:20 Kai idou yune aimorrousa dodeka ete prosethelthousa opiosths epsiato tou kraspedon tou imatiou
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: :thats not about the high priests tsitsith. not to mention that was only owrn during temple service. why in the world is Jesus walking around in the high priests outfit?
meta_human1: yes, garment - there were other greek words that could have been used it if was just normal clothing. himation, apparently, signifies an actual attrire of sorts
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: no it doesnt
meta_human1: yes. you're right. i'm looking at strong's now.......damn....my source sucks.....damn "messianic jews"
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: it appears in the NT 5 times and means just "edge, border, hem"
meta_human1: anyways, the point is, there is a preponderance of the evidence, indicating that jesus was a normal jew just like everybody else. and not just a hippy in sandals.
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: well, ok. but i never claimed otherwise. Why would a jew, speaking to jews in judea ABOUT judaism be anything other than a jew?
meta_human1: yeah, but "a jew just like anyone else" his age, who teaches religion, is a rabbi. especially since everyone called him Rabbi and Rabboni. just because he performed miracles, doesn't preclude him from being a teacher of religion.
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: whatever one takes from the theology, the history that we can be at least fairly certain of is that he was a pious jew and a wandering charismatic. Honi was the same. his miracle was to draw a circle and COMMAND god to make it rain, and god did. he also preached, etc. Same with Hanina Ben Dosa. he did exorcisms, which entailed forgiveness of sins. he preached. essenes did the same as a whole group. so nothing would suggest otherwise for Jesus
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: :youre treating these topics as if theyre something i have challenged. i havent challenged any of them, theyre widely accepted based upon the evidence that we have of Jesus and for 2nd temple judaism
meta_human1: (especially in light of the fact that there is a good case for the marriage in John 2 being Jesus' own)
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: but Jesus isnt a "rabbi" in the sense of rabbinic theology. rabbinic theology is in fact younger than christianity. Youre placing Jesus into a framework that didnt even exist yet
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: cases have been made, yes. compelling? no
meta_human1: well, that's not what all the scholars say...
meta_human1: *about it not existing yet
meta_human1: Baigent, Leigh, and Lincoln did an investigation into the topic...
meta_human1: If Jesus was not married, this fact would have been glaringly conspicuous. It would have drawn attention to itself and been used to characterize and identify him It would have set him apart, in some significant sense, from his contemporaries. If this were the case, surely at least one of the Gospel accounts would make some mention of so
meta_human1: marked a deviation from custom?
meta_human1: If Jesus were indeed as celibate as later tradition claims, it is extraordinary that there is no reference to any such celibacy. The absence of any such reference strongly suggests that Jesus, as far as the question of celibacy was concerned, conformed to the conventions of his time and culture-suggests, in short, that he was married. (In Baigent, Leigh, and Lincoln 331)
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: well, yes. it is. eg: Albert Schwietzer, Rudolph Bultmann, James Charlesworth, Geza Vermes, Raymond Brown, Helmut Koester, Wayne Meeks, Robert Miller, John Corssan, Jochaim Jeremias, etc etc etc etc
meta_human1: huh?
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: but Baigent, Lincoln and Leigh is garbage
meta_human1: why?
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: that Holy Blood Holy Grail and Messianic Legacy books are sheer sensationalistuc journalist tripe and a bad mis-placed appeal to authority. Theyre rag writers, have no formal training in history, much less jewish theologies or knowledge of jewish history. they grab bits and pieces out of very late apocryphal gospels and treat them as if they have an historical basis when they have none, etc
meta_human1: well look, everywhere i've looked, they say that it was unthinkable for a Rabbi at that time not to be married; regardless of whether jesus was or not, it was custom, culture.
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: ....and Baigent and Co are not making ANY mention of the 2nd largest group in 2nd temple judaism that went celibate, and were far more pious than the pharisees .
meta_human1: and actually, yes, now that i think of it - rabbis did have to be married then (!)...
meta_human1: There is a very strong case to be made that Paul was married at one time. One commentator makes the case that according to Jewish custom, a Rabbi was obligated to take a wife. And Paul was a Rabbi, a teacher of the law, who made the claim that he had failed in none of his duties which Jewish law and tradition laid down. (William Barclay)
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: again, the War Scroll where the men stayed celibate so they may not contract impurities. they isolated thsemselves so they would be ready when the End Time war happened. Again, the reference to Philo and and his mention that they took no wives and only kept their group alive by adoption of orphans
meta_human1: well you may find the Essense celibacy ingratiating, but i'm concerned about whether or not Jesus was married...
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: that group numbered 4,5000, topped only by the pharisees 6,000. Now are you actually trying to suggest that out of al that lived in al lof Judea, not even MENTIONING Galillee ALL shared that same late rabbinic theology?
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: 4,500
meta_human1: "The age for marriage (among common Jewish custom) was considered to be eighteen; and therefore it is [highly unlikely] that so devoutand orthodox a Jew as Paul once was [that] he would have remained unmarried." (William Barclay)
meta_human1: JESUS WAS NOT AN ESSENE GET OVER IT PLEASE
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: :um, Paul isnt Jesus. the argument was about Jesus remember? Paul may well have been married. that paul was married does not make Jesus married. that Hillel was Married does not make John the Essene married.
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: he wasnt a rabbi either
meta_human1: are you celibate Zedechiah?
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: why? if im celibate does that make Jesus celibate too?
meta_human1: wha? no.
meta_human1: i'm asking out of interest - to see whether you have a vested interest...
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: then what business is it of yours to ask about my sex life? what has that to do with ANYthing we're discussing
meta_human1: are you celibate, or would you think it more godly to be so? does the practicing of celibacy enter into into your ideal worldview?
meta_human1: "It was a regulation that members of the Sanhedrin must be married men, because it was held that married men were more merciful." (William Barclay)
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: have i even SUGGESTED such a thing?
meta_human1: no. but i'm asking it all the same..
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: i see you keep making appeals to authority
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: and im not answering just the same. my personal life is none of your business and reflects no way upon the facts under discussionm
meta_human1: ha. right.
meta_human1: what's the problem? it's not like i'm ever going to see you in the flesh
meta_human1: it's not like i'm going to tell anyone you know.
meta_human1: why do you feel the need to safeguard something, which will flitter through cyberspace and be forgotten for eternity?
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: its not like its relevant to the issue either
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: :so i wont divulge my personal life since its nothing more than a red herring
meta_human1: it is. you're saying Jesus was celibate. but you're not giving me any reason for this.
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: ive given you good reason for it. But you "didnt want history" remember?
meta_human1: i'm not asking if you're a virgin, i'm asking whether you have taken a vow (officially or personally) of celibacy..
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: ok. bye bye
meta_human1: what?! the history is, you had to be married to be a rabbi
meta_human1: the history is, you had to be married to be a sanhedrin
meta_human1: you just keep blethering on about the Essenses as if they were the REAL jews
meta_human1: and the others were Talmud imposters
meta_human1: i think you have a deep-seated prejudice: "sex is evil"
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: hahahaha. lookit. youre an idiot. you have NO idea what youre talking about. ive gone thru it in detail, ive given references. You like to ignore them in favor of your oh-so-contraversial Jesus was a maried rabbi! crap. Go back to your Lincoln and Baigent
meta_human1: references? what references?
meta_human1: see, you're emotionally involved in this. you obviously desire celibacy over marriage.
Zedechiah_the_Messiah: you go on ignore for being purposefully ignorant. fuck off dumbass
meta_human1: who, who has said that rabbis were celibate
meta_human1: give me ONE reference