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Re: anocondas (part I) |
najaboy69
(27/M/MI)
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10/22/01 7:27 pm |
BMF is quite correct in that many boids are known
to take cold-blooded prey. Dumeril's boas, emerald
tree boas, African rock pythons, olive pythons, Papuan
pythons, blackheaded pythons, womas, diamond pythons, all
subspecies of carpet pythons, Oenpelli pythons, and green
tree pythons are some of the species that immediately
come to mind as including reptilian prey as a
significant portion of their diet.
Now then, at the
risk of being rude, let's set correct some of the
fallacies presented here:
"it's true-anacondas are
the only large constrictor that will take cold
blooded prey"
Blatently false. The species and
subspecies noted above are far more prone to include
reptilian prey in their diet.
"only conceivable way
that they would take cold blooded prey is if they made
a mistake"
In reality, it is no mistake. The
presence of labial pits is an adaptation for hunting all
sorts of prey. The taking of reptilian prey is not
incidental in the least. The green tree python, for
instance, includes reptiles as more than half of its prey.
The balackheaded python, on the other hand, preys
almost exclusively on reptiles.
"of there's one
thing i don't like,it's a 20 year old who thinks he's
an expert"
I kind of feel the same way about
those with limited experience and knowledge on a given
subject who post mistruths as fact, and then resort to
pseudoreasoning to defend their blatently false
stance.
"actual observation is worth more than a thousand books &
websites"
That is debatable, depending on the respective sources
of information. Your 'actual observation' impresses
me as being comparatively limited in scope. A
bookwritten by someone such as Dave & Tracy Barker, on the
other hand, is much more credible.
"at 20 years
old,i don't see how it's possible for you to have the
experience that you claim"
Good example of either a red
herring or ad hominem, depening on which way you look at
it. Either way though, it does nothing to support
your erroneous assertion.
"snakes do constrict
when threatened"
Actually, true constriction is
exclusively a result of the prey drive. In a defensive
situation, it is counterproductive- as it exposes the snake
to unnecessary risk of injury/death.
"i know
a numberof snake keepers,& not one of them would
agree with your"facts"."
Good example of a proof
surrogate, but unfortunately a bit off. I, on the other
hand, have made both herpetology and herpetoculture a
career, and strongly disagree with you. In addition, I
know of several other professionals such as the
Barkers, Ross, Pough, Mader, and Klingenberg, among
others.
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| This Is a Reply to: Msg 129 by BMF_17_M |
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Re: anocondas (part II) |
najaboy69
(27/M/MI)
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10/22/01 8:13 pm |
Continuing with the quotes and factual
corrections...
"last i looked,everyone's snakes are fine,so we must
have had it right all these years"
Quite the
contrart, but we'll get to the poor husbandry practices in
a bit.
"i observed a burmese for over 15
years,& a boa & a retic for over 7 years.what you say is
news to me."
I'm not surprised at it being news.
After all, that is an extremely limited experience, and
no valid conclusions other than any applying to your
individual snakes can accurately be made. When North America
was 'discovered', it was news to most Europeans as
well. Of course, it was there all
along.
"constrictors strike for only 2 reasons-food & fear."
Gee, I
wonder where interspecific agression fits in? A third
reason they bite is agonsitic behavior, such as male
combat. (or didn't you know that males of some species
will fatally wound competing males?)
"they
attack other snakes either because the other snake
smelled like something that they interpreted as
food"
Yep, and that something happens to be a snake. As I
have said, many boids are strongly ophiophagus. The
most notable being the blackheaded
python.
"i've had the following combinations live together
without a
problem-burmese/retic,burmese/boa,retic/boa,retic/ball."
I wouldn't exactly go around bragging that I've
been practicing poor husbandry, but that's just me.
The combinations that you listed are just plain
irresponsible, and someone that has as much reptile experience
as you allege should know better.
"you are
not even old enough to be a college graduate,& you
come off like you're some phd.you go by textbooks- i
go by reality."
A skewed reality, if anything.
BMF may not be 'old enough to be a college graduate',
but he has demonstrated more of an in-depthknowledge
of both herpetology & herpetoculture than someone I
shall not mention. He also happens to have a working
relationship with Dr. Roger Klingenberg, who is lauded as one
of the top reptile vets in North America.
"i
have advised people about snakes for years,& i've
never been wrong."
On the contrary, you have been
very wrong on this subject.
"you study them-i
understand them."
Misunderstand would be a more
appropriate term.
Now then, if you would like to get
into a pissing match about credentials, I'm game.
Let's just say for now that I have a bit more
experience and a broader knowledge base.
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| This Is a Reply to: Msg 130 by najaboy69 |
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Re: anocondas (part II) |
snake11215
(44/M/brooklyn,new york city,u.)
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10/23/01 11:38 am |
all i can say here is this-you guys are
aparantly"academic types"-the formal,by the book way of doing
things.problem is,real life ain't like that!i've gone beyond the
books-they're only good for the most basic information.as i've
said,everyone that i know has healthy snakes,& they all have
different types living together that get along just
fine,without a single incident in over 15 years.it's actually
a very common practice.my burmese has lived with
both a red tail boa & a retic-all males-& they all
curled up together(they were,of course,separated for
feeding).you go by what a book tells you-i learn by
observation & experience.as for all those snake eating
species that you mentioned-i've never personally dealt
with any of those,but they were never part of the
discussion anyway.australian pythons are a whole other
story(& too expensive for the average person-with the
people that i know,it's all burmese,boas,balls,& an
occaisional retic).what i,& others have are pets,not lab
specimens.they are like members of the family,not something to
be studied.i recently had a discussion on another
club about"academics"being very arrogant,thinking that
they know everything.you guys have done nothing to
disprove that image.
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| This Is a Reply to: Msg 131 by najaboy69 |
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Re: anocondas (part II) |
BMF_17_M
(20/M/six feet under)
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10/23/01 2:29 pm |
I'll leave it up to Naja to list his own
credentials if he wishes it, but suffice to say he has more
experience, personal hands on experience than both of
us.
Also, it's hard not to appear arrogant when speaking to
someone who is ignorant. You have a small little corner
of your world and you believe that only what you
have seen could possibly be true. That is a very
ignorant and narrow minded view. This may be a shock to
you, but you haven't seen it all, even at your
age.
BMF
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| This Is a Reply to: Msg 135 by snake11215 |
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Re: anocondas (part II) |
snake11215
(44/M/brooklyn,new york city,u.)
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10/23/01 2:45 pm |
this is what i mean about arrogance.i never
claimed to have"seen it all".however i do know what i've
seen,& some of it contradicts your"facts".you seem to
automatically dismiss what i say.i am far from ignorant.i know
what i need to know."corner of the world"?-this i will
say about your age-i've been places & seen things
that you probably couldn't imagine.you can have all
the knowledge in the world,but you obviously have no
idea how to deal with others in a respectful
manner.this is precisely what i meant about academics-they
get knowledge & degrees,& with it comes arrogance &
disrespect-they think everyone else is beneath them.
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| This Is a Reply to: Msg 137 by BMF_17_M |
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Re: anocondas (part III) |
najaboy69
(27/M/MI)
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10/23/01 7:36 pm |
Well, it seems that you still don't get it, and
keep begging for more. Now, let's dispense with your
red herrings for a moment, and stick with the main
fact of the matter. That fact is that you are
spreading misinformation, and are too stuck on yourself to
admit it. Just the fact that you practice irresponsible
husbandry speaks volumes in and of itself.
Also, you
have NO ROOM WHATSOEVER to accuse others of disrespect
and arrogance. Remember saying this after BMF
politely corrected your misinformation- 'of there's one
thing i don't like,it's a 20 year old who thinks he's
an expert.i've had snakes for over 16 years.i think
i know what i'm talking about.? After you remove
your foot from your mouth, please feel free to join us
in the real world. Respect is a two way street, and
if you want it, you need to show it to others.
Otherwise, someone with more experience, such as myself, may
come along and knock you down of that pedestal you sem
to have placed yourself on.
Seeing as how
you're continuing with your lack of tact, I'll continue
with my dissection & correction:
"all i can say
here is this-you guys are aparantly"academic
types"-the formal,by the book way of doing things"
Nope,
we just have a firm understanding of reptiles, and
considerable practical experience. As a matter of fact, I
would venture to say that my hands-on experience and
practical knowledge far outweighs yours. Is that being
arrogant? No- its stating a simple fact.
"problem
is,real life ain't like that!"
Problem really is, you
have no concept of what 'real' actually
is.
"i've gone beyond the books-they're only good for the
most basic information."
Alas, you don't even know
the basics. If you did, then you would know that your
penchant for housing different species together is
piss-poor husbandry at best.
"...they all have
different types living together that get along just
fine,without a single incident in over 15 years."
Ever hear
of Russian Roulette? By the way, do you mean to tell
us that in 15 years, you did not learn how to
properly house snakes?
"you go by what a book tells
you-i learn by observation & experience."
You're
experience is limited at best. The whole essence of your
misinformation is the fallacy of composition. Now then, if you
would like to talk about observation and experience, we
can. As I said though, my hands-on experience and
observation will greatly outweigh yours.
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| This Is a Reply to: Msg 135 by snake11215 |
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Re: anocondas (part IV) |
najaboy69
(27/M/MI)
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10/23/01 7:37 pm |
"i've never personally dealt with any of
those,but they were never part of the discussion
anyway."
This one amused me the most. Now that you've been
shown to be wrong on numerous counts, you're
doublespeaking. They were part of the discussion from the first
reply that you made. Or do you not consider pythons to
be 'large constrictors'.
"i recently had a
discussion on another club about"academics"being very
arrogant,thinking that they know everything."
So, you were
licking your wounds because another person with a basic
understanding of herps corrected your gross misinformation?
Aesop wrote a fable that befits you wonderfully. It has
a little something to do with a fox and
grapes.
"you guys have done nothing to disprove that
image"
Nor will I attempt to. The focus of this discussion
is not how you perceive me ( I could personally care
less)- it is the gross misinformation that you posted,
and the fact that you went on the offensive when
sound information was posted that contradicted your
skewed beliefs.
"however i do know what i've
seen,& some of it contradicts your"facts"."
As has
been stated time and again...because you did not
personally observe something in your comparatively limited
experience with a handful of snakes, it does not have any
bearing whatsoever on its truth or falsehood. Your claims
are akin to someone saying they've been to Canada,
but never seen China... therefore, China does not
exist. Its extremely flawed logic.
"you seem to
automatically dismiss what i say"
Not at all. Only the gross
misinformation is dismissed as such. Unfortunately, that seems
to be every post that you've made on this particular
subject.
"i know what i need to know"
Far from
it.
"i've been places & seen things that you probably
couldn't imagine."
Been there, done that, got the
t-shirt, so there's not much that I can't imagine. Try me
sometime.
"but you obviously have no idea how to deal with
others in a respectful manner"
Pot, kettle, black. I
know full and well about dealing with others in a
respectful manner, so long as they are deserving of it.
Respect is a two-way street, o' great one. If you don't
show it to others, don't expect it in return. BMF
tried to tactfully correct your misinformation, and you
got rude and defensive-trying to defend your
misguided opinion with various forms of pseudoreasoning. If
my replies to you seem rude or condescending, keep
in mind that you set yourself up for it.
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| This Is a Reply to: Msg 139 by najaboy69 |
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Re: anocondas (part IV) |
doug_kyle
(M/Denver)
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10/23/01 8:17 pm |
Here's my $0.02 worth. Practical experience (not
counting the research in addition to this) - a Dumeril's
will act territorial enough that a larger constrictor
will cower and hide from it. The Dumeril's cornered it
twice. When I research that Dumeril's have been observed
(by trained and learned others) and are noted to tend
to be cannabalistic, I immediately separated these
particular two. The importance of this is that these two
specimens are just under a year old (on a healthy diet,
proper living environment, etc.). Per constrictors (and
here I go to 'regardless of size' mode), they do eat
cold blooded prey. Offer any hungry constrictor an
Anole and "observe" what happens. There is recent
footage of a constrictor regurgitating (due to the
presence of humans) an Iguana that was 95 percent of the
constrictor's own body weight, and there is further
documentation on film. Based on that alone, how can it be said
that constrictor's do not eat cold blooded prey? My
premise, and I will stick with it until disproven by data
to the contrary, is that constrictors across the
board do consume on a regular basis cold blooded prey.
(Oh yes, is my age great enough to bear any weight?)
Doug
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| This Is a Reply to: Msg 140 by najaboy69 |
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